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Location: South Wales, UK
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 18,574
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05-02-2011, 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by LuvMyDog 
That's missing the point, deliberately so it seems. The dog will keep pulling against the flat collar, it won't against the prong.
Originally Posted by LuvMyDog
LuvMyDogMyArse
Oh, that's your best then? Name calling?
In fact, to prove my point I will start a poll - and ask if someone who abuses their dog by hurting them, can be classed as someone who loves their dog, or not.
Originally Posted by LuvMyDog
I'm actually starting to feel quite ashamed and embarassed for a number of posters, it's like trying to get an opinion from brainwashed fanatics with limited reasoning skills.
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Location: Usually in a muddy field somewhere
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 20,145
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05-02-2011, 06:28 PM
Do you include, as part of the contract, that the device must only be used in conjunction with an expert?
Do you sell these devices to owners of puppies and small dogs?
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Location: london.uk
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 8,012
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05-02-2011, 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by LuvMyDog
That's missing the point, deliberately so it seems. The dog will keep pulling against the flat collar, it won't against the prong. So, in both the short term and the long term the prong collar will cause less damage.
Why does everyone keep saying "put one on yourself and let someone tug at it......." I've done that, SOOOOOOO many times, if that's the best come back you've got don't bother.
LuvMyDogMyArse
Oh, that's your best then? Name calling? Because you don't agree with me or can't maintain a debate that doesn't undermine your (quite flimsy) standpoint you insinuate I don't love dogs and smugly wait for the cliq to jump in and agree? I'm actually starting to feel quite ashamed and embarassed for a number of posters, it's like trying to get an opinion from brainwashed fanatics with limited reasoning skills.
regards,
Austin
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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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05-02-2011, 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by LuvMyDog
Like Halti, Canny and Dogmatic you mean? Hands up who's doing their dirty work by selflessly promoting their products? No-one's yet stated catagorically these are suitable for 100% of dogs or don't cause stress or injury.
I suggest you try elsewhere where the members are less discerning ...
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Location: Stourbridge, UK
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 88
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05-02-2011, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by LuvMyDog
To date I've found a couple of scenarios where the use of a shock collar has been acceptable to the majority. Even R+ trainers have yet to come up with a more convincing or practical solution. Suprisingly they're situations some R+ trainers grudgingly accept.
So, what would you consider to be a scenario where the use of a shock collar would be acceptable and R+ might be lacking in effectiveness?
There was an episode of everyone's favorite, Cesar Millan, where the owner was desperately trying to keep her dog away from rattlesnakes. His solution was to use a shock collar and when the dog showed interest in a snake he applied a shock. The dog quickly associated the negative stimulus with the snake and wouldn't approach them. Nifty eh?
So, on further investigation is appears this method is very popular, in fact momentously more popular than anything an R+ trainer has come up with. It's evolved into it's own little industry in areas of the USA where poisonous snakes are prevelant. It's not failproof, it doesn't work 100%, and some dogs have very high prey drives, higher it seems than the collar can train out. However, consensus seems to be in agreement it has a very high success rate.
The only options offered by R+ trainers are:
Teach a good recall
Offer high value rewards for the dog staying away.
I don't see this having a very high success rate because if the owner isn't actually with the dog there's no-one to recall, and there's no-one to offer a high value bribe. Snakes don't mind slithering into gardens when the dog may not have a handler available, so the shock training would still have some significance in terms of results, i.e. the dog leaving the snake alone. The other alternative would be to always keep the dog indoors and never let out without the owner. Now I see that being particularly cruel in a country with that much space and with such good weather. It seems there is an instance where R+ can't compete on the same level as a shock collar.
And on that bombshell......let the slagging off commence.
regards,
Austin
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Location: The Badlands
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,889
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05-02-2011, 06:36 PM
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Location: Usually in a muddy field somewhere
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 20,145
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05-02-2011, 06:40 PM
So LuvMyDog (I will resist using your name extension although I think it is apt) - when you sell your prong/pinch collars, do you offer to go and train the new owner of the device? You know, to ensure that they know exactly when and how it should be used? Do you assess the dog before the sale to ensure it is appropriate for that dog and that situation?
Do you include, as part of the contract, that the device must only be used in conjunction with an expert?
Do you sell these devices to owners of puppies and small dogs?
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Location: london.uk
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 8,012
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05-02-2011, 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by LuvMyDog
Ah, ok, don't want to discuss it out in the open and would rather try and bury it here. Fine.
There was an episode of everyone's favorite, Cesar Millan, where the owner was desperately trying to keep her dog away from rattlesnakes. His solution was to use a shock collar and when the dog showed interest in a snake he applied a shock. The dog quickly associated the negative stimulus with the snake and wouldn't approach them. Nifty eh?
So, on further investigation is appears this method is very popular, in fact momentously more popular than anything an R+ trainer has come up with. It's evolved into it's own little industry in areas of the USA where poisonous snakes are prevelant. It's not failproof, it doesn't work 100%, and some dogs have very high prey drives, higher it seems than the collar can train out. However, consensus seems to be in agreement it has a very high success rate.
The only options offered by R+ trainers are:
Teach a good recall
Offer high value rewards for the dog staying away.
I don't see this having a very high success rate because if the owner isn't actually with the dog there's no-one to recall, and there's no-one to offer a high value bribe. Snakes don't mind slithering into gardens when the dog may not have a handler available, so the shock training would still have some significance in terms of results, i.e. the dog leaving the snake alone. The other alternative would be to always keep the dog indoors and never let out without the owner. Now I see that being particularly cruel in a country with that much space and with such good weather. It seems there is an instance where R+ can't compete on the same level as a shock collar.
And on that bombshell......let the slagging off commence.
regards,
Austin
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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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05-02-2011, 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by LuvMyDog
Ah, ok, don't want to discuss it out in the open and would rather try and bury it here. Fine.
There was an episode of everyone's favorite, Cesar Millan, where the owner was desperately trying to keep her dog away from rattlesnakes. His solution was to use a shock collar and when the dog showed interest in a snake he applied a shock. The dog quickly associated the negative stimulus with the snake and wouldn't approach them. Nifty eh?
Austin