Emma
It's accurate because you stop the sensation the moment the dog's behaviour changes, that is negative reinforcment.
It's also accurate because you start the sensation the moment the dog does the undesirable behaviour, that is positive punishment.
If/when changing brands you simply take a few secs to find the dogs first level on the new collar.
Discomfort and pain are imo different. If my arms in bright sunlight and too hot that's uncomfortable and I move my arm (negative reinformeent) if my arms in a fire I also move my arm but that's painful (also negative reinforcment). The e collar sensation is the equivilant of the former not the latter.
Wyswig
If it's painful there not trained in the same way I'm training.
You may not believe the -r with the ellies is the same as with the e collar but I do.
Both use a mildly uncomfortable sensation on the neck which the animal seeks to avoid. Just because one is a hand and the other is electrical stimulus doesn't mean the animal percieves them as different. The ellies have to work out how to avoid the hand stimulus as well. My training involves lots or pr.
Working the dog for a long time is only productive if the dog is engaged with the training for that time. Because e collars are a mild motivator this makes it possible. Similarly you can work a dog with pr for a long time. If your using an extreme motivator you will have to be carful you don't exhuast the dogs drive for that motivator (toys) but it can work.
Unless circumstances force it I don't work dogs for a long time. OFTEN I will train for 10 mins, explain to the owner for5 mins then repeat.
Wilbar
Your correct any aversive will use both positive punishment and negative reinforcement. But any appetite reinforcer (reward) with use negative punishment and positive reinforcment.
While you keep refering to e collars as causing pain and fear I know they do not.
Yes the method is trial and error learning but die to the use of the lead (or any guidance) and the very accvurate nature of e collars the learning is fast. This makes it less stressfull than other types of learning which maybe slower as the dog experiences less frustration while learning.
If they are banned, more dogs will be pts, more will be rehomes, and more will have a poor quality of life. This will lead to increased behaviour problems and increased anti dog feeling (as a result of the behaviour problems). This could lead to increased restrictions on dog ownership.
Wilbar/Wyswig
Re conscience, fortunatly I've researched the subject and have practical experience of it. Therefore using on does not effect my conscience or princples at all. In fact it works with both by improving the dogs life.
Personnal experience
1ST thing I did when buying one was feel all the different stims, I've also done the whole way you suggest with all the different levels at random times (so not training just friends shocking me lol) unpleasent but not relative to how I train, I've also had somene do a version of the shaping game with an e collar to me. Not stressful at all.
CAD
I've been trainign far longer than I knew about e collars (or cared) I've achieved good results without but choose to use them as their the most appopriate tool for some dogs.
Sibevibe
If you don't research on the modern use of the tool (which is my approach) you can't really compare it with your original research. The equivilant of comparing beating a dog with a lead and using a chest harness spring to mind.
The dogs you've met were obviously not trained well with it.
Having met dogs who've been abused in other ways (with leads ect) I can honestly say I don't see the point in rejecting e collars because of bad useage.
I have worked with a few bad abuse cases and helped them with an e collar!
Emma
Electric at a low level does not hurt! Turn it down low enough and you won't feel it. Most people can't feel the lowest levels on the collars I use and comment that their first level of sensation feels like a tingle.
Minihaha
Sometimes people can not take the time it takes to achieve a result, The gsd and malamute are good examples. Patience is great but improving the dog and owner's lives is important.
I keep in touch with my clients and they comment the dog continues to improve/remain good with no negative issues.
In the usa (were e collars are very popular) there should (if it were true) be lots of evidence for behavioural problems with e collars. The reality is there isn't and many usa organisations support them.
Adam